Curse

qvtkc · Jan 19, 2010, 02:56 PM // 14:56

(Not sure if this fits here or on Riverside or wherever.)

I've played this game since early 2006, and have been setting up PUGs since a month or so after I started. I prefer setting up groups of my own since then you know what you'll get (as opposed to joining a group where the leader might or might not be competent). For quite a long while PUGs were just about inviting/accepting until you had a decently balanced team (1-3 frontliner, 1-2 monks depending on area, rest damage casters) and press enter mission. And then came hard mode, and suddenly it started to actually matter what skills people bring.

Ok, stop that. No, I'm not a build elitist, I'm less of that than many other people here, I'd think. I don't care if your build is on PvX or not, I don't care if your attributes are perfectly aligned on optimal breakpoints and all that. I prefer to have an efficient build myself, but as for my teammates, it's better if they bring stuff that they feel comfortable with. After all, the point of a game is to have fun.

But enough is enough. This game has existed for how long - five years, soon? And people still bring horrible builds in hard mode. Time to end this. So if you PUG, please read this, and take note. Yes, I'm selfish. I'm trying to help myself getting better teams. But let me tell you this: if you, yes you who are reading this, is on that better team, you will have a greater chance of winning and having fun.

Of course, not all of these steps need apply. But the first and the last ones always do.

Step 1: Play for the team, and the team will play for you
Guild Wars is about teamwork. In a perfect team, you are not playing the 8 skills on your bar - the entire team is playing the 64 skills on the sum total of all teammates' bars, as one entity. Of course no team is perfect, but you can and should still adapt your build to the team. If you have an excessive amount of self-heals, maybe substitute those for some damage skills and let the monks do the healing. If you choose between Vampiric Gaze and Barbs, maybe take Barbs even though you personally can't trigger the effect.

Step 2: Bring rez
You have 8 slots on your bar. Fill them up. Now remove one skill. Go ahead. Yes, that one, the one that adds like 0.5 to your DPS. You don't need it. What you need to put in there is some skill to revive your fallen teammates. No, the plan isn't that people should die. But you have 7 skills for when everything goes as planned.
And one skill for when nothing does.

Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk
I don't even intend to explain this one.

Step 4: Put on an attunement if you are ele
I see this on so many elementalists and I don't know why. Packing an attunement will give you back loads of energy for each spell you cast, preventing you from running low so fast. Taking Elemental Attunement means you can spam energy-heavy spells without break pretty much endlessly, though it also means giving up your elite, so it's not recommended. The normal attunement for your chosen element will ensure that you won't run dry in the middle of a protracted battle, or as a result of multiple encounters in quick succession.

Step 5: Bring a warrior build if you are a warrior
So a warrior enters the team, and pings something like 2 elementalist spells, Defy Pain, one adrenaline attack, Power Attack, Ebon Standard of Honor, and so on. What. On. This. Holy. Earth.
Why even play warrior if you are going to bring something like that? This is the only time I'm a build elitist, because warriors more than any other profession in GW can be completely and utterly useless if they are bad and truly excellent if they are good.
Also, this problem doesn't really seem to exist for other professions, not to this degree.
I'm not asking that you should always use the latest super template posted here on Guru, or elsewhere. It's even better in fact if you understand the skills well enough to build your own. But please if you are going to play warrior in hard mode take a moment to learn the adrenaline system, and take another moment to appreciate how warrior damage works.

Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.
You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? Can't you see all those PvX copycats hanging around the outpost spamming "SoS lfp"? If we wanted a spirit spammer, we'd take one of them (which we probably already did), not you, since they can do a much better job of it than you can. Fear not, though; all is not lost, since you can do a much better job doing what your profession is made for, nuking, shooting arrows, doing awesome melee damage or just standing around making purple sparks in the air, respectively.

Step 7: Don't be a retard
If asked to ping your build, ping it without hesitation: no one wants to steal it, and few wants to insult you for it. They might want to suggest improvements to it, even if you have read this post and done everything that I said here. If they do suggest improvements, consider their words; they are usually based on actual playing experience.

These steps are only the start, the rest is up to you, and to your team. Sure, you only just met these people, and you'll only play with them for an hour and then never see them again. Still, it's a multiplayer game, and playing for the team means playing for yourself: if they win, you win.

Shayne Hawke · Jan 19, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

tl;dr: Use common sense when developing your build.

Crassus Praetor · Jan 19, 2010, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Yes it is common sense (not intended as criticism), but at least
read something before commenting.

As we know, common sense isn't that common.

Wakka · Jan 19, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Got to hate people that think your going to steal thier build lol

Good post though, although 90% of the offenders wouldnt have the sense to come here looking advice. But even if we effect the other 10% it will be a victory.

Dzjudz · Jan 19, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Step 3: if you are a Monk, take Unyielding Aura. If you are running Healer's Boon, take a Healing Prayers res. Let other players take rebirth or res signet or whatever.

Shayne Hawke · Jan 19, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crassus Praetor

Yes it is common sense (not intended as criticism), but at least
read something before commenting.

I did read, and then I summed it up. It's all points that people should be using to improve themselves anyways, and they shouldn't need someone coaching them to do it.

qvtkc · Jan 19, 2010, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Step 3: if you are a Monk, take Unyielding Aura.

Yup true, UA is ok for monks. It's a rez skill, but it's very fast and it still lets you use the entire bar.

Aeronwen · Jan 19, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Awesome QTVKC

nicely written, covers the main points, and is a useful reminder

Ty so much

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Step 3: if you are a Monk, take Unyielding Aura. If you are running Healer's Boon, take a Healing Prayers res. Let other players take rebirth or res signet or whatever.

Why do you want a monk to take a res?

The Josip · Jan 19, 2010, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.
You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? Can't you see all those PvX copycats hanging around the outpost spamming "SoS lfp"? If we wanted a spirit spammer, we'd take one of them (which we probably already did), not you, since they can do a much better job of it than you can.

No, they can't, sorry. My mesmer will be pretty much as good spirit spammer as a Ritualist primary, and if I'm better than him in placing spirits and having proper skillbar - I'll end up being even better to PuG than Ritualist who doesn't know how to play properly. If players are equally skilled, Ritualist primary spirit spammer is insignificantly better than non-Ritualist primary. In practice, difference is so small that it doesn't matter. That's why so many people play x/Rt, that, and the fact that spirits are so blatantly overpowered that it's not even funny. Saying how Rt primary is "much better" in spirit spamming is a joke, what is it better in, having 1 point in Channeling and Communing more? Oh yea, you do 200 dmg per second, and this way you do 210. Big deal.

Elementalists and Mesmers (as well as others sometimes) use spirit spam in HM because that's the best thing they can do if they want to do damage without exploiting some PvE skills. If anyone has problem with x/Rt's, then complain to ANet. And if you have a problem with this, then tell me what Elementalist build will do more damage in HM than E/Rt spirit spammer? That's right, none.

Basically, if E/Mo came to your group and said he's protection/healing, you'd probably also tell him not to be silly and to take ele skills since he's elementalist. Yea, the only problem is that with current skill (im)balance, E/Mo will do better than monk in most cases.

ps: Oh, and I also use rez on my monk most of the time. That's because when PuGing you can't rely on others bringing rez. It wouldn't be PuG if you could :>

The Josip · Jan 19, 2010, 10:41 PM // 22:41

The problem with pugs is anonimity. It's not even player skill, or their attitude. It's anonimity. Anonimity and impersonality that causes major problems. Can you imagine some PuGs being near you IRL, at the same table in a bar or somewhere, and typing all the crap they type sometimes? Of course not, because they would risk someone hitting them. Can you imagine your guildie pulling out some 'stunts' and ruining mission on purpose? Of course not, because he wouldn't be guildie for much longer. Can you imagine someone from your friends list doing that? Highly unlikely, because people know each other better.

So you see, it's all about anonimity. Root problem. People do something because they can and because there is no likely retribution. And this will never be solved which is why PuGs will always be bad. It's just the way things are. Sure, some pugs are good, no one questions that, but it's a lottery which IMO is overall not worthy. I only pug sometimes when I can reach guildies/alliance people, and am too bored to do it with heroes.

That's why I say: get in a guild which is in a nice alliance. This is real solution.

Why is skill not a pug problem? Because guild might have people who are not skilled either, but you will usually know who they are, and also guildies are more likely to listen to positive feedback. Using the best build is not necessary in 99,9% of PvE, but having well-mannered people to play with is.

martinross · Jan 19, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I liked the post. It pointed out stuff and ways of thinking that I could use, thanks.

As for the 'all PUGs are bad and always will be'-comments, writing and reading something like what the OP did, is a constructive way to actually do something about it.

The Josip · Jan 19, 2010, 11:05 PM // 23:05

We're not saying all pugs are bad, but pugging in general means:

1. It will be slower because of lack of team synergy, and often far below optimal builds.
2. Much higher risk of failing.
3. Risk of bad attitude.
4. Irresponsible people (leaving without reason, starting something when they know they might not be able to finish in time etc)
5. Lack of communication / fun chat. Surprised? Yes, many like pugs because of communication. I don't know what kind of pugs you get, but those I get barely talk at all. And if they do, it's just generic mission related stuff. I'm sorry, but chance to get good conversation with pugs is extremely low, although I understand this depends on personal preference. Something that will bore me to death, someone else might find thrilling. Much higher chance to just talk with guildies and alliance people during HHed mission.

maxxfury · Jan 19, 2010, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Pugs usually want a "wiki" build thats proven to work, wether its the best, they want something that is as close to fail proof as possible to waste as little time as possible.

Also in a pug you cant know peoples skill levels and some bars are harder to run that the spam friendly cookie cutter SF elems ect. So they are wanted to run something that any trained monkey could run for a higher % chance of a win.. And no titles dont mean crap and you cant count on them to guage skill.

As well as that i believe a LARGE % of players dont actually know so much about the game as would some here, and believe that wiki bars are THE only way to go, and on the opposite side of that coin, some players are jsut casual and dont use forums or wiki ect and only have bars thay have thrown together.

So generally HERE this thread is preaching to the choir, the real trick would be to get simple info like this to the general population..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

It all comes down to close-mindedness, and I don't care what anyone says, because I'm right.

Ironically, a closed minded statment.

unless it was deliberate sarcasm? hell i cant tell here these days!

The Josip · Jan 19, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

So generally HERE this thread is preaching to the choir

That crossed my mind too

Quote:

Ironically, a closed minded statment

Perhaps, but an appropriate one. Along the lines that you don't want WMo in your group.. sure it could be close minded behavior, but mayhaps appropriate.

Eragon Zarroc · Jan 20, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

If it were a bit more professional, i would sticky it in PUGs and Grouping. but in it's current state, prolly not

maxxfury · Jan 20, 2010, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

I find it quite hard to believe what I said was closeminded.

Saying you wont listen to anything others have to say on the subject of closed mindedness cos your right and nothing else matters?

ironic much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the dictionary

Adj. 1. Closed-minded - not ready to receive new ideas

But anyway, pug's generally wont change for the most part due to this thread, even tho it makes good points, as most who still pug wither wont read this or are too bad to understand the points made within. Now if something like this was on the official site with a link on the login screen...then maybe....some of it would get across to were its most needed.

ShivaTwoDelta · Jan 20, 2010, 12:21 AM // 00:21

LOL @ not pinging the build.

Most who don't ping won't talk in team chat either. They can invite you, but after that it ends.
Sometimes though there are those who consider their build a top secret document.
Making it even more funny is when they defend with "don't worry, trust me I know what I'm doing, I'm pro".

I noticed the attunementless eles too, as I am a daylie member in OP's pugteams.
Hello Lydia.

Other hateful things are ursans.
Ursan WAS great, pre nerf and it was fun cleaning up DOA in an hour or so.
It never was fun in normal PVE as it was simply way overpowered.
Today it's nerfed to close range and limited in duration so I consider people running ursan people with a serious lack of inspiration.

A general source of irritation to end my post with would be the rank discrimination.
This goes for both the lightbringer/norn rank nonsense (norn r10 or you can't do DOA!) as well as for Heroes Ascent.
"LF MONK R12 no naps plz". I know rank is nice and fun and blabla, I'm R6 and glad5. Rank doesn't automaticly equal player skill. It is merely an indicator, but certainly no guarantee. I've won in HA with lowranked pugs (some weren't even r3) versus r6 teams and up. It's been a while since I went to HA, but I know why I rather play something else.
Rank discrimination, not giving people a fair chance to prove what they made of, no thanks.

jonnieboi05 · Jan 20, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Disagree with "don't bring rez if you're a monk".

UA is your friend. If you're HB, Restore Life says hi.

glacialphoenix · Jan 20, 2010, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk
I don't even intend to explain this one.

The problem with this one is that so many other people don't do Step 2.

In any case, there's UA.

Dzjudz · Jan 20, 2010, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeronwen

Why do you want a monk to take a res?

Because instant full hp / full energy res which also boosts heals = good? With HB, restore life is half cast, combine this with a healing prayers weapon set and you're good to go.

Also, consider arcane mimicry and UA synergy. pvx example